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Forum:A civil fork
So there's some dispute here that I'd like to resolve. The key parts seem to be around copying between wikis without attribution, and attempts to persuade people to move from one wiki to another. Slipknot Darkrai's block seems to be mostly about disagreeing on whether the fork should happen, and how things should work now it has. There are now two wikis, and they need to work out how to co-exist. I would suggest that they do so by leaving each other alone. Disputes on one should not carry over to the other, no one should be trying to recruit for one on the other, and admins... if you intend to keep your rights here, they must only be used for this wiki's benefit. And, of course, if you copy text from one wiki to the other then you need to do so with proper attribution. I'll remove Slipknot Darkrai's block so that he can be part of this discussion. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 08:41, November 21, 2010 (UTC) :Copy text? Even with proper attribution, people like Slipknot will just steal all they can from the NIWA version, making them seem all strong because they copied the edit. If you choose to limit the amount of text that can be copied, say an entire page worth, that is not from the importation of everything, then I shall agree with this. Both sides will respect the limit if several people on here agree. I will attempt to make sure of it and we ourselves aren't even trying to copy.--MegaTron1XD 18:46, November 21, 2010 (UTC) ::There's something you appear to not understand, Sannse. DKWikia is dead. The editors here are not being helped, and their work is needed more on the NIWA, where the main community is, rather than Tyrannikia. I'm a part of both wikis communities solely so this place is not adopted. What I really hate is that due to the damn social networking that made us leave in the first place is getting DKWikia new contributors. I don't want our editors and readers having to suffer the pain and annoyingness that is Oasis. I'm trying to help them. You're not. --Havoc'48 19:18, November 21, 2010 (UTC) :::(It looks like I closed a wrong tab and lost a reply here - sorry about that) :::Havoc: My view of this is different, of course. You are harassing editors for choosing to edit here, and trying to use this wiki promote an alternative one. That's not acceptable. Either you are editing for the benefit of this wiki, or it's time for you to move on. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 22:19, November 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::Since when is "I recommend you use NIWA" harassing? Or is that breaking Tyrannikia rules? --Havoc'48 23:21, November 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::This is harrasing. You seem to only like Slipknot because he's editing here but guess what? Read that edit. You want to know his justification for copying edits without attribution? "YOU GUYS ARE HELPING A COPY". So really, before you consider what Havoc is doing harassing, see what Slipknot has done.--MegaTron1XD 23:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::I'm here to support anyone who wants to edit on this wiki. If Slipknot is breaking rules on another wiki, then I would suggest he is banned from there. And if he is breaking the rules of this wiki by copying from elsewhere without attribution, then he should also be banned here -- but not for a dispute on another wiki, and not just because he chooses to edit here. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:46, November 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::And why are you exactly so intent on helping this place? You did not show much intent for SW's move at all. Do we have to revolt to get you to notice? Seriously. How am I going to make him stop with all this "go here" crap? Block him on NIWA? That won't work. The only way for my method to work is if he receives punishment on both Wikis. If he decided to come on NIWA's and troll, it means he should be blocked on here to get the point. If you ban a person from a club they hate and they express it, what does that accomplish? Nothing. You have to ban them from a place they like to go to.--MegaTron1XD 00:52, November 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Slipknot Darkrai has done nothing but make poor edits and useless contributions to this wiki in the past, and he never even agreed on anything the community chose, instead preferring to do things his own way! If anything he was just asking for that block! He even went over to DK Wiki on NIWA and did nothing but harass and complain about the wiki with his illogical views! I've kept quiet about his behavior in the past but enough is enough! He clearly deserves to be blocked (at least until he learns to behave himself) and as for our using of NIWA, I don't think that by telling someone: "I recommend you use NIWA" counts as harassing, its not like anyone went and said "Use NIWA or don't edit at all!" anyone has the free option of either editing here or on NIWA. And as for copying off NIWA's DK Wiki, I believe its a poor choice to do so and its best for both wikis to write independently with their own unique info. -The Forgotten Beast 01:14, November 23, 2010 (UTC) I don't intend to get involved in this, but I'll make a quick statement. Slipknot Darkrai, like Wikia, has always been oblivious to the consensus of the community, while pushing his views onto the community, while lacking the ability to properly back them up. Since the very beginning, he done this. The shining example, back when he first started, he started making individual articles for each level, despite the DK Wikia not allowing individual levels to have articles at the time. When his articles were turned to redirects, he got in a multitude of edit wars with the other users. Despite being warned about it, he ignored the community and continued on. Eventually, a forum was made about, every user who commented on it but him objected to levels having articles, and while the users who opposed the level articles provided logical arguments, Slipknot's argument for having the level articles consisted only of "I think they should have articles". He would later be blocked for ignoring the consensus of the community and for constant edit warring. Then came the NIWA move. Slipknot had well over a month to say something on the forum to oppose the move if he genuinely felt the move was a bad idea. However, he didn't say anything at all. Then when the move happened, he comes to the NIWA DK Wiki, again being oblivious to what the community decided, and harassing users there for editing on a Wiki that the community decided to create. And then, as mentioned, he started copy pasting from the NIWA DK Wiki. While I wouldn't say Slipnot's contributions were useless, they are not of particularly good quality, and they consisted of plenty of faulty edits. Simply, he is far from the ideal editor. Havoc on the other hand, is the best contributor and admin this Wiki has ever seen. He almost single handily revived the Wiki, and yet you demote him despite him showing no ill harm toward the Wiki or abusing his powers in any way, while supporting a user who obviously doesn't grasp the big picture. If I could, I would demote you for abusing your powers. Your reason for demoting Havoc is not a valid reason to demote a b'crat, and is horribly presumptive. Havoc done nothing to harm this Wiki, and demoting him is only harming the Wiki. You created this forum as you want a "civil fork". However, your actions have contradicted your intentions. You demote the best contributor and admin here for an invalid, presumptive reason, while supporting the user who was the cause of the incivility that you claim you want to prevent. A conflict of interests? Simply, I suggest you go. You were never a part of this community, have no knowledge of its history, and do not understand the community. Your presence and actions here are just making things worse, and you have been horrible at backing up yourself. Let the damn community handle themselves, they don't need you, and they don't want you here. Harsh? Yes, but seeing how you have been abusing your power everywhere (most notoriously on WoWWiki), I don't care. Sincerely, Omega Tyrant 02:06, November 23, 2010 (UTC) :If Slipknot needs to be banned for actions on this wiki, then that's fair enough (and that includes if he copies from another wiki without proper attribution). And if Havoc wants to be admin of this wiki, then again - fair enough. But he has said that he is only editing as an admin here to prevent others from adopting it. That's a problem in my eyes. This wiki may not recover from the fork, but that shouldn't be decided by any admin trying to block that possibility. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 04:16, November 23, 2010 (UTC) ::What I find amazing is that you never paid attention to us until all of this started. Tell me. What was the reason behind this whole thing? DKCR's release? Your wiki staff member told you? You have several a staff member who can delete and everything we can do. So, what would be the point of adopting it? Can't you simply grant rights? You seemed to avoid going to a talk page for demoting Havoc. You have to be formal to promote? Backlash towards your actions have been everywhere. You seem to basically ignore them. You avoid our argument and immediatly go back to yours. "Everything will be all right BUT you can't edit just to stop adoption". You have not tried to counter OT's argument like we did on SW. Try a bit harder and maybe the backlash from random users who don't pertain to this Wikia (Ivy) can stop.--MegaTron1XD 04:34, November 23, 2010 (UTC) :::I'm not quite clear on what you are saying here. I can add rights without formality, yes. We do that often for various wikis (there's a page to request it on the Community Wiki). I removed Havoc's rights because he was continuing to spam talk pages with messages asking people to move, and because I was concerned that he was trying to prevent this wiki having a chance to recover after the fork. As I said above, if he wants to be admin with the intention of looking after this wiki, and not to try to promote the other one and prevent this one's recovery, then I'm fine with that. :::Omega Tyrant's argument is that I'm not part of this community, but I am part of the Wikia community as a whole, and a representative of Wikia itself. Part of what I've done since I started on Wikia is look at issues around groups moving on and new groups taking on wikis. :::On why I came to this wiki: I tend to visit wikis either because there are specific problems there, or if someone leaves me a question on my talk page. I called in to Smash Wiki when I heard that was forking, but was too late to do more than leave a message similar to my first on here. Since then, I've looked in to see if there was anything else I could do, or if there were problems, but it's been calm so I haven't needed to intervene. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 04:27, November 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::HavocReaper48 there is more work needed on the NIWA by cleanup.... and you are destructing this wiki by trying to drag everyone there. There will always be someone here and I like this wiki better...... Sorry also what happened to your sysop privileges? Slipknot Darkrai 11:43, November 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::Everyone is also mean to me here and doesn't like me, but I am just a 13 year old so how am I supposed to know these stuff, but the Wikia Staff member has came and removed Havoc's powers for preventing anyone from adopting this wiki. If you'd like everyone I am sorry for being so mean and everything I did in the past and since Havoc's powers are removed, I want to adopt this wiki and thank you Sannse for unblocking me. You saved me. I have been bad lately and I want to say sorry. I am upset aswell that no-one likes me... bye and sorry for everything... ;( Slipknot Darkrai 11:54, November 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::::*facepalm* ::::::You can not adopt while wiki problems are occuring. And being 13 is not an excuse to not knowing things. I'm 13, Havoc's 14 damn it.--MegaTron1XD 15:53, November 24, 2010 (UTC) *Darkrai: this place is not being adopted ever, I'm ensuring it. Trust me. We "Don't like you" because the community makes decisions and by the time you come around there's been a full census and you then oppose the community out of nowhere. Plus, you STILL haven't listened to me after the many times I've told you to make your articles and edits better. Lastly I saw that you copied the DKL3L template when Sannse said you couldn't do that without accreditation. *Sannse: I made mainspace edits. Ha. Also, Smashwiki is one of the nearest-complete wikis ever and they do not need contributors nearly as much as DKWiki does. I'm ensuring the new contributors go to the right place. ...please tell me you did not have some reform crew traveling to every wiki that moved. Also you completely missed the "...Your presence and actions here are just making things worse, and you have been horrible at backing up yourself. Let the damn community handle themselves, they don't need you, and they don't want you here. Harsh? Yes, but seeing how you have been abusing your power everywhere (most notoriously on WoWWiki)...". ' part of Omega's WoT. Look, Sannse, leave us alone. Don't demote, promote, or block anyone either. We're not all seven year olds, stop treating us like such inferiors. We (or at least, most of us) know what we're talking about. With all honesty, I would have better luck arguing with a brick wall over this. '--Havoc 21:42, November 24, 2010 (UTC) Hello. I am a member of the Animal Crossing wiki, also moved to NIWA, and I am (was, really) an admin. Then Sannse got involved, and everything bad imaginable happened. She sided with the wrong people (the founder who thought it was "her" wiki) and she has no reason for stopping you except so she can get her nice paycheck. I also have had experiences with Darkrai, he was a sockpuppet and made literally 300+ articles that said "Blank is a character." or "Blank is an item.". If you find a way to get the users who do not want to move to move, then please tell me. A few really good editors are staying on the Wikia wiki, which is dead (some person changed one article to Spanish) and a few users are staying on both. And also thanks to Sannse, EVERY SINGLE ADMIN/B'CRAT lost their powers, except one. Thanks, Sannse. I am SuperAlpaca, just not logged in. So, if you think you can help our wiki, just go to the NIWA AC Wiki and leave a message on my talk page. That is not why I am posting this, but it would help a ton. I really hope you guys get through this, and you will get a ton of new good editors on NIWA. Good luck, SA. :So Darkai does his typical "X is a Y in Z" article standard cross-wiki? Wow. And of course, more proof that Wikia is biased. Yup, I, being the lead editor here, was demoted because of the move. That's Wikia for you. Thank you for posting, SA. --Havoc 02:47, November 26, 2010 (UTC) Catching up after Thanksgiving... Please view SuperAlpaca's contributions and the log history there for the full story. I'm not going to get into a discussion of that situation here. Slipknot Darkrai: You are still copying without attribution, and I fully support the ban you got for that. It's clear you aren't understanding the restrictions on copying, or listening to others on the wiki... I'm sorry, you aren't the right person to adopt this wiki. Havoc, you said "this place is not being adopted ever, I'm ensuring it". You don't have the right or ability to decide that - any remaining or existing community will decide that, or Wikia staff if necessary. You haven't yet addressed the point that you have said that you are only here to try to prevent others adopting, and don't seem to understand that that is not acceptable and negates the argument that you are the remaining community. You can either move on and leave what remains of this community to recover (or not), or you can be a genuine part of it and stop trying to use this wiki to promote your own. If you continue to misuse Wikia's service in this way, then you will no longer be welcome to use the service at all. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 21:51, November 28, 2010 (UTC) ...fine. Whatever. You don't appear to completely understand but I no longer appear to care. We're even. I won't post on talk pages here asking them to move. I'll keep to my patrolling and low continuous edits on here. I'm pulling out of this argument. --Havoc 21:29, December 3, 2010 (UTC) :Don't you know that Wikia staff are almighty beings who control everything in existence, are always welcome in any discussion (even ones that are irrelevant to them), and are able to do as they please everywhere? It's obvious that they're so very active in the wiki, so they should be able to make decisions all they please without even having any backup from anyone ever.—Neo(talk) 20:39, December 4, 2010 (UTC)